S9E13 – The Segregated Lives of Preschoolers

S9E13 - The Segregated Lives of Preschoolers

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver,

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is The Segregated Lives of Preschoolers.

Dr. Val: Now that just stopped me in my tracks because why are we already talking about segregation for our youngest learners?

Andrew: Yeah. You would like to think that it's way too young to even be talking about something like segregation and yet, if you look at our early childhood education system in this country, what you find is a tremendous amount of segregation.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I know we have listeners who have been wondering and asking, when they are thinking about starting a family, what decisions they should make. And oftentimes preschool isn't the conversation that comes up. Right. We jump right to kindergarten and other public school options.

Andrew: Yeah, right. I mean, you don't hear about people choosing their house for the preschool that it gives them access to. And you know, part of that is that we don't have guaranteed preschool. But it does feel often like a separate conversation, but it is really actually tied pretty closely to the K-12 conversation.

Dr. Val: Now, did you spend a lot of time thinking about preschool or like what was your experience?

Andrew: Yeah, the only thought that I had about preschool was where can my kid go that is affordable? That, um…

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Andrew: With my oldest, that she will no longer be my full-time responsibility because I was home with her full-time for almost two and a half years. Um…

Dr. Val: What a gift.

Andrew: Yes, yes, definitely looking back, it was a total gift. And in the moment there were times where I was like, okay, somebody else needs to be in charge of her for a change. And so, we lived in Pittsburgh at the time and so we found a little neighborhood daycare that was affordable and she could go to. I didn't think at all about the, racial or class segregation or integration that was present there. I didn't think at all about, you know, how the teachers were treated or any of that. It was a place that somebody said, oh yeah, my kid goes there. And so I said, great, and we sent her there. And it was lovely. It was a very nice place.

And then with our youngest, we started her at the elementary school starting from the time she was three, that felt like a really easy choice because once we were able to get a seat in it, which was not super easy cuz there's never enough capacity. But that felt like a really easy choice to just continue to invest in that school community once we had made that choice for the older one. How about you?

Dr. Val: Yeah, similar, like, our first thought was, okay, what's affordable? Because they don't tell you that when you take a child home from the hospital, about how much daycare costs and, so it was what was affordable and we found a daycare that we loved. It was a Black-owned daycare. And, our son was loved and we thought he was cared for. And then we heard from, actually one of my husband's colleagues about this other daycare where, these experiences that my son was not having all of the little kids had there.

Andrew: Mmmm.

Dr. Val: And I think that was our first realization that even early childhood centers could be places of extreme inequity.

Andrew: Yeah, which is actually the focus of the research of our guest for this episode who I'm very excited to introduce folks to. Dr. Casey Stockstill is a researcher. And actually is moving to New Hampshire to be a professor at Dartmouth, starting next year. And she's got a book coming out in the fall and it's called False Starts, the Segregated Lives of Preschoolers.

We actually came across her from podcast listener and community member Jen, who sent us an email with a link to an interview that she had done. I found it totally fascinating, reached out and, and she was willing to come on and, and tell us about her research and kind of her perspective as a Black mom, but also a sociologist looking at the ways that preschools are segregated and the impacts that has on kids.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I really can't wait to dig into this conversation because I think what surprised me in preparing for the interview was the implications of such segregated preschool experiences and how, if our listeners hear that, they'll be able to take that knowledge and do something positive with it.

Andrew: Absolutely. Alright. Should we take a listen?

Dr. Val: Let's do it.

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Dr. Casey Stockstill: I'm Casey Stockstill. I have a PhD in sociology from the University of Wisconsin Madison. I do work on racial equity and early childhood, and I have a book coming out in November called False Starts, the Segregated Lives of Preschoolers. And the book is about what I learned after spending two years observing four year olds.

Andrew: Why preschools? Why do you care? How did you find yourself studying that?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: So when I was an undergraduate student, I worked at a Head Start preschool kind of as a teacher aid. And it was just so much fun. Kids are so fun, they're so funny. But also, you know, trying to figure stuff out, being a curious college student, I like really tried to listen to them and they just say these offhand things about inequality in society, like young kids are very perceptive. And so that stuck with me. And when I was in grad school, I was trying to pick a class project for my ethnography class and I was like, let me go back to a Head Start because kids have so much to say and I wanna like, you know, have more time to listen to them again. So I did those observations and I just kind of got hooked, couldn't stop going. And that was like, I think nine years ago. And I'm still trying to kind of make sense of what I learned there and continue to learn about, how young kids are doing and how we can do better for them.

Dr. Val: Can I just make a personal connection right here? My grandfather in 1965, he was the inaugural director of a Head Start in Sarasota, Florida, and so always big believers in early childhood education in my family. He was actually a professor of early childhood education at the University of South Florida. And so when, when I learned about your Head Start story, and it obviously hit home for me, and I'm, I'm just thankful for that being part of your path.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I knew about my mom's childhood, but I, you know, you don't ask all the questions up front or whatever. And talking to my grandma about my research, I learned that my mom was a project Head Start kid in 1972. Yeah. She did like a summer program...

Dr. Val: Nice.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: So it's, it's just cool how these programs and these, you know, issues are part of our biographies.

Dr. Val: Yeah, for sure.

Andrew: That's super cool. Yeah. I feel like there is a sort of general acceptance that preschool, early childhood education is a positive force for good. I feel some ties, we had Dr. Brittney Murray on talking about PTAs and parent engagement in this kind of like similarly, we have a sense that parent engagement is a universal good, and I feel like some of your research starts to like complicate that a little bit. That, that, yes, we want kids in school, we want kids in school early, but that it's not always the kind of universal force for good that we think it is. Can you talk about that a bit?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Sure. You know, I'm always like paying attention to how people talk about preschool, and I think the message is, it's this powerful experience. Especially for children in poverty, it can set them up for later success in life. It's a good investment as an anti-poverty policy, and therefore, we should expand preschool as much as we can. We should have kids in poverty be first in line, but we should just expand it. And I don't disagree with that, but I'm kind of thinking like, let's pause a little bit. Let's ask the harder questions about how we're setting up preschool for children. And actually ask if it's delivering what I want for my young kids and for young kids, which is like, warm affirming spaces that enhance kids' dignity, and provide positive social relationships. And I think the answers are, like you said, Andrew, they're complicated and probably inconvenient to people who are on the front lines of just like, okay, maybe it's not good enough, but let's get more preschool. Cuz there isn't enough, you know there aren’t enough options available for families.

Dr. Val: Complicated and inconvenient, which…[laughing]…seems like that's a spot on way to describe the truth in a lot of these instances. Yeah, for sure.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Right. So maybe it's that when, when preschool is done, well, it obviously can be a very powerful force. I mean, you both have personal connections to Head Start, it has had some positive impact. What are the ways that it is often not done well, or what are the sort of challenges that come up if we're not as thoughtful as we should be about it?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: So probably not surprising that the number one challenge that I want to talk more about is segregation, race and class segregation and what that can mean for children and for teachers when we just pull kids into different kinds of classrooms. So in my book, I observed these two classrooms, right? And one was, at a place I call Sunshine Head Start, which to qualify for that the families had to be in poverty, but also at this Head Start, most of the kids were also kids of color, right? Then the second classroom was in a preschool that I call Great Beginnings, which charged relatively high tuition, none of the families were in poverty, and almost all the families were White.

Andrew: So, kind of the opposite ends of the spectrum of what you might find from a race and class standpoint in a preschool.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah. And so what's interesting is that both of them were rated five out of five on the state's, like quality rating system, right? They're like, you know, blue schools or A+ schools or whatever.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: And yet they were really, really different in the experiences they were offering for kids.

Andrew: Yeah. Dig into some of those differences because I think, certainly like where my mind first goes in hearing that is like, oh, well there was probably really great experiences for kids at the White privileged wealthy school and not so great experiences for kids at the Head Start. But that, I don't think that's actually what your research found.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: So that's the complication picture, right? It was a mixed bag. So one of the kind of maybe paradoxical findings that I have is about a pretend play actually. And so at Sunshine Head Start, where all the kids were in poverty and most were kids of color, the teachers actually gave the kids a lot of control over how they played. They had a lot of autonomy. And the reason that that happened was because at Sunshine Head Start there was kind of this rotating group of kids who were new to the class. So poverty in this country can mean there's lots of instability for some families, right? It can mean you get evicted…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: …you get placed in foster care, you get placed back with your parent, you might move a lot and all these kind of transitions that also can make kids transition through a preschool classroom. So there was this pattern at Sunshine Head Start, where like 14 of the kids had been there all year, knew how the classroom worked, and were kind of good to go. And then there were always two or three kids that were new because of these transitions. And so they needed extra support, right?

And then that 14 kids I talked about who, like maybe their housing was stable, their parents were stably employed, they still had things pop up that are experiences more likely for people in poverty and also for people of color, right? So like having a parent incarcerated. And so kids might kind of act out when tough stuff was happening at home. And so the teachers at Sunshine Head Start would focus most on those kids. They would say, you know, Julian is upset today, he's kicking the bookshelves, he's cursing, so we're gonna stay close to him and make sure he's all right. And while they're doing that, the other 14 kids are playing on their own, you know, they're being supervised, they're mostly safe, but, they're managing all their pretend play. And it was really fun and cool to see.

So I spent like six to eight months trying to figure out how do you do pretend play? And they have their own system that they've created for this of like, one person would be the leader. They decide who, who plays what parts, and they work all this out kind of like an improv team, right?

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: They start talking like they're the mom. They tell someone they're the daughter and they just kind of keep it going. And then new kids might come over and the kids have to decide like, can this kid join the play or can they not? And they had this whole system to work that out that was managed by children. Right. It was really creative. It was really autonomous. And I think that's fantastic. Like, I thought it was really cool. I would, I didn't have kids when I was observing. It's like if I ever had a kid, I want them to like have this experience. This is really awesome.

And then I went to the second preschool, the Great Beginnings Center where the kids were middle class and, and most of them are White. And they didn't have this instability that comes from poverty and structural racism. They didn't have kids getting evicted, having their parents become incarcerated, foster care, homelessness that was not there, right? And so they counted on the stability. I only went to Great Beginnings in February for this like really intensive month of observations. And all the kids had been enrolled in that class since September. They all knew what was up. They all knew the rules. And so the teachers divided their attention really evenly and they got really involved in the kids' play.

So even on my first day there, I was like, you know, it's really quiet in here during indoor free play. Like it was kind of boring, honestly. I was like, this is, this is really different from Sunshine Head Start where there's kids kind of, you know, jogging across the classroom areas, playing and laughing. Like Sunshine Head Start almost felt chaotic when I was new until I figured out like that they had a whole system going on.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Great Beginnings, quiet, controlled because the teachers had spare attention and what they chose to do with it is be very involved in who played where, how the kids were playing. And so the way that those kids got pretend play going was this like explicit negotiation. Not like improv, but they would say, let's play that we're going on vacation and Katrina, you be the mom and Sarah, you're gonna be the daughter. And then they start playing and then they might pause and Katrina will tell Sarah, “Sarah say this, this, this,” and then Sarah has to say it. So they're doing this whole scripting basically, that the teachers loved, they were playing how the teachers wanted them to play.

So my first reaction to that was like, this is kind of boring. It's predictable, it's less creative. They avoided a lot of like problem solving moments. The teachers avoided this because the teachers decided who went to what play center, how long they stayed. So they just didn't have these moments of like, oh, you know, Jason just came over and wants to play. What do we do? Less problem solving there.

Andrew: I love that you, you refer to that as like opportunities to learn problem solving. Cause I'm sure that what it, what it feels like to the teachers is like they're avoiding conflict, right? Like, let's not have the conflict in the first place. We're gonna script it so everybody has a friend, they all get to play with somebody else. We don't have a kid left out. We're gonna like, avoid all these opportunities for conflict. But what they're actually doing is like avoiding these really small, multiple times a day, low stakes opportunities for kids to actually work out problem solving, work out like interpersonal conflicts in, in ways that I'm sure would then be beneficial to them down the road.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yes. And also to just to be creative. You know what I mean?

Andrew: Talk about that down the road piece - what are some of the implications of these different forms of play?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: In the book I talk a lot about the consequences for inequality, right? So part of the puzzle is actually K-12 education. Where will these kids go next? And how will they be allowed to exist within their elementary school? For example, what skills will teachers be looking for in them? So what those kids at Great Beginnings did experience was these teachers being intimately involved in their play, commenting on it, looking out for them, and so that aspect of what happened actually mirrors what other sociologists see in elementary school of, um, affluent children. They see that middle class and affluent children expect tailored adult attention from their teachers. They expect special accommodations. They raise their hand if they're struggling a little bit. And then in contrast, poor working class kids feel more distance, assume they should work out things on their own. And so it was this way in which like the autonomy over play, early childhood people would say, “That's perfect. Like that play is the work of, of childhood. Like that's really great.” But what I wonder is like, what will this mean in elementary school?

Andrew: Right. So there's a way in which like they are, they're really learning very different skill sets. And I guess you could argue that the skillset that the Head Start kids are learning, maybe that's even better for their development. Right. But, but maybe those skills then aren't actually fostered or valued when they continue on in our education system, the way it's currently set up.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: So if those kids at Sunshine Head Start go to a school where teachers value creativity and solving problems on your own, you know, that would be fantastic, but, based on some other sociology research, they're more likely to go to schools where there's kind of a White middle class cultural system that values self advocacy, raising your hand, getting the thing you need, and that's what the Great Beginnings kids were learning how to do through pretend play.

Andrew: Mmmm.

Dr. Val: You messed up Andrew. This whole thing was supposed to be about early childhood. Here we are talking about housing segregation. I am making like so many connections, and wonderings. You know, you talked about predictable and less creative and less problem solving. I'm thinking about “Yeah, that's how suburbs kind of look.” And, you know, I'm thinking about my son, his, his preschool experience. We went with a Black neighbor who was like, “Hey, you know, my family has a childcare center you should go to.” You're like, great. He was loved. I mean, I was still trying to feed him baby food and I found out he was eating grits and sausage, but still whatever, happy kid. Right?

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: And at the same time, my husband worked with someone who went to an affluent, predominantly White daycare, and on transportation day, they would have an airplane flyover… like one of the parents was a pilot and he would fly it over for transportation day and like wave to the kids. And I remember feeling as a parent, like, oh my gosh, I'm not giving my child like, the best that they could possibly have. Because to your point, the schools that they went to next continue to separate, like the haves from the have nots in terms of, of opportunity. And it also sounds like the kids have more fun at Sunshine Head Start, right? Which is what I want for our young people. So I'm, I'm, I'm literally making all of these connections now. I think, uh, uh, my mind is blown. So, so how did you feel, walking into this and how did it mirror your own experience? Like what connections were you making personally as you were conducting your research?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: That's a great question. So the kind of research I did was ethnography where you go, kind of participate in a social space, you're writing notes about what you're observing. But for me, the way I did it was trying to become a member of that classroom as much as I could. So I think all research, like we have a position in it, we have to be reflexive about it. There is no objective way to do research. That being said, when you're doing ethnography and like every day watching what's going on with people and trying to make sense of it, it can hit in a really personal way. Yeah, it was tough to, to be in a Head Start observing, um, because I, I was poor when I was growing up, but I didn't go to preschool. I didn't go to Head Start or anything… like it probably would've had a lot of benefits for me in terms of the resources provided. Yeah, I don't know. I was just trying to work out these complex connections. I love some of the things that Head Start’s offering these children. On the other hand, there were like shortcomings and there were downsides.

Dr. Val: We didn't have an airplane on transportation day.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Right. And so, yeah, just trying to make sense of those things. And also this role, of poverty, structural racism, trauma to some extent, like trying to work out what all that means. Cuz what's interesting about kids is they don't always talk about, like family events in the way we might think, you know. Some of them are going through really awful things and they would enact that in their play. They would just like talk about like, we don't have any milk at home, or like, my lights aren't on, you know, but they're not expressing it with sadness. And so it's not to say it's not sad, but just trying to like reconcile that with the way formal terms of research would, they would call those like adverse childhood experiences. Right? Or I think like on Twitter we'd call those like trauma, like intergenerational trauma or current trauma.

So I don't know, that was just an interesting piece of it, like reconciling how these kids talk about what's happening to them, and actually like the way that the teachers at Sunshine Head Start did not openly talk about even the things the kids brought up. They would like register it and then they would gossip about it or like talk about it amongst themselves. But they were really uncomfortable to have open conversations with the kids or with those, their families about, I call them family disruptions for, for lack of a better term.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Mmmm.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: And so, yeah, I don't know. I reflected on that because I've experienced some of those same challenges basically as a child and how like people didn't talk to me directly about them either. They're, it's like all the adults are talking around you and trying to arrange and trying to make you feel better. But they don't know how to have those direct conversations sometimes about what you're going through.

Andrew: Um, as like the teachers see so much trauma, so much disruption. And, I guess they're just not comfortable talking about it. Not set up to have the space to talk about it with the kids, not trained to do it, whatever, but how did those sorts of things play out at Great Beginnings?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Again, another contrast. So I kind of took note of all this and wrote about it in my field notes, and then I got to Great Beginnings and I was like, “Okay, there's gotta be some kind of family disruption here.” Like how, you know, how does stuff going on at home come up at school? And so I looked for that every day for a month. And the only thing that really came up was travel, actually.

Dr. Val: Oh wow.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: It was Mom's on a business trip or we have a family vacation. Those were the disruptions that were talked about and, and kids most of the time were just like, it's a fact of life. But sometimes they were really sad about it. And the difference was because the disruption of your mom traveling for business is not super stigmatized. Like the teachers would just be like, yeah, that's really hard. Let's look on the map. Where did your mom go? When will she be back?

Andrew: Hmmm.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: And I contrast that with like, the things the Head Start kids brought up, which are like, my dad's in jail right now. Right. And that's, that's a stigmatized…

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah. I mean, part of me wishes the teachers could have, but they definitely didn't. They just moved on and talked about it amongst themselves.

Andrew: I mean that, that feels so powerful too because, because again, like what sort of messages are then those kids taking into their future schooling environments about… Like how much of themselves can show up? If starting in preschool, my mom is traveling for work and it makes me feel a little sad is welcomed into the classroom, you're now, you know, setting this expectation that whatever's going on belongs here, has a space here. And if from the time you're three or four, these things that are obviously like big impactful moments, if those things are, are being pushed out, what does that say about school as a place where you can actually show up as your full self?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah, that's exactly it. I think Andrew, like, what can be talked about here? And so even if the teachers weren't saying, no, no, don't talk, we don't talk about jail at school. They weren't saying that, but they were letting it sit like so… And I think silence, especially repeated silences on these things, say something, they say exactly what you said, right? They're like, this is not something we discuss here. The other thing I thought about a lot was like just how abstract certain family challenges were to the kids at Great Beginnings.

Andrew: Mm... Because of the degree of segregation between these two schools, the family challenges that the kids at Great Beginnings were even aware of as like a possibility for a family challenge were just like on a totally different scale than the kids at the Head Start.

Dr. Val: I think I read, you were pregnant during your research. So that freaked me out, when I was pregnant in terms of like finding the perfect daycare for my young person, right? I had to go back to work so I couldn't stay home and, and be with them as long as I wanted. And I remember with my second daughter, so we had moved my son from the daycare and I cried and cried and cried. Cried and cried and cried. Moving him away from this Black daycare where I thought like his soul would be nurtured… that I was… this like… I was letting down my community, right? Like that I am, I'm taking my child out of this school to go to one that’s predominantly White, that has more resources. And I was, yeah, I was, I was struggling with that. So I cried and cried and cried. When it came to my daughter, who was born two years later. Like as soon as I got pregnant, I wanted to get on the waiting list of this daycare that we were in. And I mean, it was a great daycare. I got lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of, lots of art projects every day. I'm like, how do y'all have, like enough, have enough, have enough? Um, but, but it was also about convenience and having my kids in the same place and having them kind of in the same experience. So I'm just wondering, like you as a parent doing this research, like how did it feel when you had to make that decision, for your own children?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: It's a little bit of a complicated answer. So when I thought about, you know, who will, who will care for my children while I work? Cause I knew I wanted to keep working. That wasn't a question for me, but who, who will care for them? What will that be like? I had in mind all this time I'd spent observing preschool classrooms and I also had in mind just the general research on early childhood development. So the thing I would remind myself in the dead of night when I was like, will we get a spot anywhere, you know, was just like, I have a lot of educational attainment. And in grad school, we didn't have a lot of money, but we would eventually, we'd have enough money, right? And I was like, you know, my kids will be fine. They really will be.

So middle class children benefit from preschool, but the stakes are so much lower. And that is basically because the, the counterfactual, the other place they might be, if they're not in the most high quality preschool is cared for by friends or family or a home-based childcare center or somewhere. But like often you're talking to your kid, you're reading to them, and they're, they just have so many other like, class-based advantages baked in.

So I hold that in my mind. The twist that I have, like many of us, if you're a parent of color, you know, I'm a Black mom, my kids are Black, so that worries me more. Seeing both spaces like, there's so many ways in which they can be mistreated or not seen holistically with all their strengths. So that worries me more. I have way less control over that. So that piece worries me more.

And then like the other piece of decision making that I really value as a parent is thinking of our family as a system where we all matter basically. I have three children now. The oldest is six. And then I have a three year old and then I have a baby. So I try to really be like, you know, given that my kids are probably gonna be fine, we're gonna pick a childcare center that we can afford, that we can get a spot into, and that fits like all of our needs, rather than like, what do I think is the best preschool? And I will drive my kid across town and, you know, go into debt to do that.

So it's not like incredibly easy, but honestly when you see the reality of preschool classrooms, probably like parents who have been teachers before or are teachers, you just get a sense of like, it's a mixed bag, we'll get through it, you know? And I don't actually have the power to pick the one perfect setting for my kids. So like, so I'm just like, let me pick one that works. And then when I am, once we're in a preschool or a childcare center, I just try to focus on the teachers as much as I can. And that, those are the questions I ask as well.

Dr. Val: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: How are teachers supported here? Do they get days off? Do they get professional development?

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: They're really important to kind of the classroom environment and I, I just wanna make sure that we're working as a team basically to support my kids.

Dr. Val: Yeah, So I'm a, I'm an educator by training as well, and so, yeah. You know, like sometimes you can have a good teacher and sometimes you gonna have a terrible teacher and we just, we'll just do our very best. I know you talked a little bit about the class dynamics. Can you talk a little bit more about the racial dynamics that you saw in your research and did you have any kids of color at Great Beginnings that you saw? And what was their experience?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah, so at Great Beginnings there was one child of color. So actually side note, one of the motivations for my research was like, I'm gonna do this whole project on how four year olds understand their racial identities. And that's part of why I picked the Head Start that I picked. I painted with a broad brush when I said they're all kids of color. They were, and they were racially diverse. So there were four LatinX kids with kind of recent immigration histories from Central America and Mexico. There were South Asian children, there were African American children. There were some African immigrant children and one or two White kids, usually at a time. So it was racially diverse, you know. Um, and I was like, I'm gonna look for how they talk about race, how they make sense of it. And at least in this classroom, it just didn't come up explicitly. To the point where like even their racial identities, like how they identified, did not come up much. The teachers, I wish they had bothered to ask more. Like I knew more about where kids' families were from than they did. So anyway, when I talk about the kid of color at, um, Great Beginnings, she didn't talk about being a kid of color. I would classify her as multiracial, but I don't know how she identifies herself or how her parents identify her. Weird post-racial vibes in the preschool. And yet I am a race scholar and, you know, race and racism were operating at both places. Um…

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: …in explaining why these kids ended up at these two schools in the first place, like why in the City of Madison are there relatively few middle class kids of color that could afford Great Beginnings? Some of the treatment at Sunshine Head Start probably related to the kids racial identities, but because of the way the field sites, the two classrooms were set up were like one school's all poor and very few White children. The other school's all affluent and very few kids of color. I wasn't able to see things like differential discipline, for example, other researchers have that kind of design to see things like, are teachers discriminating in how they treat preschoolers? Yes. That's what that research says. But, my work isn't as good at that. My work's more about like the implications basically of preschool segregated by race and class.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean you talked a little bit about your own positionality, like showing up in these spaces to try to sort of become part of these school communities and, and the, you know, teaching staff that you're interacting with in both places was largely, largely White. Is that right?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yes.

Andrew: Can you talk a little bit about sort of like yeah. That, that experience for you and then what the kids took away from that?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah, of course. So, My goal before starting was to do something called the least adult approach, where I'm obviously gonna be an adult,you know?

Andrew: If I may, that's how I live my entire life.

Dr. Val: Same. Same. I'm a middle school teacher. I'm a middle school teacher. Least adult approach. [all laughing]

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Right. So it was like, you know, how can I be an adult, but just, assume the least amount of authority that I can to get a little closer to what kids are experiencing. And so I went to Sunshine Head Start first, and I went there for two years. Right? All preschools, usually they get licensing visits. So Head Start had that experience for sure, but they hadn't had like volunteers or student teachers that came and stayed for more than a day or two. So I came in and I told them, “Hey, I wanna do this approach. I don't, I'd like to not be in charge of the kids, even in a secondary way. I wanna like, just kind of spend time with them and see what it's like for them here.” And they agreed to that.

And then what also happened is those things I described of like the teachers having to focus on new kids to the classroom. The teachers are really busy and they actually gave me a lot of autonomy, just like they gave the kids. You know, I could go wherever, do whatever. And so the kids at first at Sunshine Head Start were like, who's mom are you? It took them a few months to just settle into like me saying, I'm just Casey, I'm not a teacher. And so, you know, if they skinned their knee and they wanted help, I would say, oh, go get a teacher. If they got in a fight, I would kind of step back and let a teacher intervene. That caused some sticky moments with the teachers sometimes, but, but after a few months, the Sunshine Head Start kids like, kind of let me into their world a little bit, right? So they're breaking rules and they're not glancing back at me to see if I care. They're looking to a teacher and they're cursing in front of me. And weapon play. Just various things that were like against the classroom rules. Um, and I felt really accepted in that classroom space and really at home there. And it was like really hard to leave. And then I went to Great Beginnings and that school had the same experience of observers coming in for licensing and to check the classroom environment. But they were also like a well regarded school, and so they got some student teachers and they got people observing, like basically how good they were at running their school.

And then at that school, you know, most of the kids were White. There was one other Black teacher, staff person in the building. Um, so I was one of two Black adults that like came into that school and they just, I think were more uncomfortable. And then I was also only there for a month. So I tried the same approach. I told the teachers my plan. I was actually really explicit about these are the six things I'm looking for, and I'm curious how you all do it here compared to the last place I was at. And so the teachers, I just think they were uncomfortable with me, like hanging out, for lack of a better word. Maybe cuz that's how they treated the kids, but they would like, try to send me to pair up and help a kid walk with something and it kind of undermined the least adult approach I was trying to do. And then the other thing that happened there was two weeks into my field work the director was like, can I see your notes that you're taking your field notes?

Dr. Val: Oh wow.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: I was like, no. I learned, I learned about this as a researcher, like it's hard to have someone take notes about you, right? That's a weird power relationship in any kind of setting. So my first reaction was like, sure, that's understandable. Whatever, you can see the notes. And then I talked to some of the teachers and basically what had happened is the teachers didn't see me writing a lot of notes. I would like scribble quotes on like construction paper. And then I would go type up the notes on my phone in the staff break room, which is how I did it essentially in Head Start as well. And the teachers didn't see me taking a lot of notes and so they were like, is she doing her project? Is she actually doing her job that she was…

Dr. Val: Oh, they were policing you.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah. It's kind of, it like really hit as a microaggression to me honestly, that they don't know what my job is, but were like pretty sure I wasn't doing it and checking up on it and so…

Dr. Val: Ooh.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah, so things just were never fully as comfortable there. I think for a lot of intersecting reasons.

Dr. Val: Well, I think that gives some insight into how, I know you didn't have a lot of kids of color in that school, but I would not be surprised if they treated the young person the way they treated you.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Hmm.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. And I mean, the interesting thing thinking about the Head Start as well, in the same way that, the way that you were policed at the White school was at least likely due to your racial identity. Your ability to be a, you know, least adult possible in Head Start was probably also related to that.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Alright, so we have preschools today, right? Have they changed much since you've done your research? I know it probably hasn't, you know, we're talking about really big problems.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah, it's taken, this book has taken a long time to come out because, having the three kids and moving and all this stuff. And so the field work was in 2014 and you have, you have this like sick feeling of like, I don't want this to become outdated, you know? Or I don't want this to get scooped. But then unfortunately I don't think it has become outdated and that's very sad. So my read on like the public discourse about preschool as well, I think people are talking more about universal preschool expansion. I think the 2020 election and Biden and Warren and their platforms, like I heard the conversation picking up, but I didn't hear a lot about segregation, about equity. A lot of the same systems and structures are still there. I'm not seeing much change. I think what needs to happen is recognition of the big questions and the big challenges basically of racial equity. And there are other folks in this space who've been talking about this for decades. But, I think folks need to bring them into the table more as we think about expansion. Like what are we expanding access to, right? How could it be better? What was baked into it? Also, because it's not quite the same as K-12. Like one key difference, right, is that you're not guaranteed an early childhood education, in the United States as a whole. But what it does have in common with K-12 is the settings we did have, the group learning settings we've had, the first one started in about 1830. Those were segregated by race and class. And it kind of has spun along in that way ever since. So we need to think about that when we talk about these questions of universal preschool or preschool expansion.

Andrew: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about, I mean, we sort of laid out what some of the differences were in these really segregated spaces, but looking out, you know, for the future, for these kids, for all kids, what are the downsides of continuing to have such segregated preschool environments for our kids?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: I think that we miss out on an opportunity like, because of this moment, the early childhood system is a little bit disconnected from K-12. We have this opportunity to make early childhood something that expands children's minds and teaches 'em new ideas and supports their dignity, right? And so after doing my research, I'm not convinced that we can have segregated classrooms and deliver on that. And this will probably piss people off, but that includes Head Start. Uh, I just think there is a limit to say if we want 16 kids in poverty in one class and all kids of color, that means that all the kind of shrapnel of structural racism and poverty and the way those things exist in our country are gonna come into the classroom. They're gonna affect the learning experience kids have. It was really stressful for teachers. It can lead to teacher turnover and burnout. And that's not what we want. And so like in my dream world, we wouldn't actually focus on preschool. You know, we would eradicate child poverty. We'd deal with systemic racism until then, cause those are big things… Until then, I think we should take a really critical look at the implications of segregating by race and class in preschool.

Dr. Val: Yeah, so a lot of our listeners start even listening before they have young children or when they have like, super young children and they are grappling with like, how do we make these decisions? Like early on they're thinking about it. As soon as you know, the young child is born.

Andrew: Or they pee on the stick and they're like, oh, do I text my parents first or do I get on the waitlist?

Dr. Val: Or do I get on the waitlist? Right. And so, we will have many in the audience who, you know, although they are not faced with the decision yet, are really, are really thinking about the things that you're saying. What questions should caregivers ask when they are searching for a preschool or early childhood center?

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah. So I think first you asked those questions about your needs as a caregiver and for your family. Eliminate the premise that you're gonna bend over backwards for something that seems like a perfect setting for early learning. Focus on like the hours you need. What, what is it that's gonna help you be effective as a caregiver? Because that relationship really is core. So if you're adding stress to your life to drive across town to some perfect preschool, I'm not sure that's a net positive for your child. So I put those structures in place and then within the things that will work for your whole family, um, I think you have to take a tour to get a feel for the place and what the classroom environment is like. And when you do that tour, try to look past some of the material objects in the classroom.

So, you know, there might be places that have the cute wooden toys, or art on the wall that's very charming. But actually what you need to look to is how do the teachers seem? Do they seem content? Do they seem overwhelmed? Do they seem like they're, you know, able to have positive relationships with the children? Because really preschool is about relationships. You want a good relationship between your child and a teacher, and you want your child to have great opportunities to play with other children. You can find that in, you know, small business childcare centers where maybe the tables and chairs are a little old, but the relationships and the feeling in the building is good. So that's what I recommend looking for first and foremost.

And then if you want to, you know, fight the good fight and look for a race and class integrated preschool, there's a few things to look out for. So as far as social class, does the center accept subsidies? So maybe you don't need one, but um, if you want there to be class diversity in your child's preschool, hopefully the center accepts the state or the city subsidy for childcare. But the other question to ask, if you're comfortable is to ask the director, when you do a tour, do you accept the subsidy and do you have other families here that are using it? I've found a lot of centers say that they take whatever the subsidy is called, but then in practice they haven't had a family there using that subsidy in years. Right? So you're trying to get a sense of the actual class diversity in that center. And then racial diversity, you can ask about that. Ask how they support diversity and inclusion in their center. You can kind of look around and get a feel for what it looks like when you're there.

And you know, you might have trouble finding a preschool mixed in terms of race and class, and that's because the system just doesn't make it easy for those kind of centers to exist. The best estimates I've seen place it at about 20% of preschools within childcare centers are mixed income and racially mixed. So they're, they're kind of hard to find, but I am hopeful that more parents, especially affluent and middle class parents, will support these kinds of settings so that they can continue to thrive.

Andrew: Right because our choices matter in terms of what can exist out there. Um, and particularly the choices of, you know, more affluent, especially White, especially middle class parents.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Yeah And then just, just a, a shout out, for parents of color that, you know, there's a lot to think about in terms of supporting your child, making sure they're valued and they're, you know, seen as a whole person. And there are some centers out there that really put cultural pride at the forefront. So there are some centers that, you know, foster Black excellence. If you're Spanish speaking, there's centers that are based around speaking Spanish. And so I personally think that there's a role for those kind of centers and I think it makes a lot of sense for some parents of color to choose a center that's actually not integrated right. But it's designed around meeting your child's whole needs.

Dr. Val: This is fantastic. You are amazing.

Andrew: It's awesome. Thank you so much.

Dr. Casey Stockstill: Thank you so much for having me. This was a great conversation.

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Andrew: So, Val, what'd you think?

Dr. Val: Yeah. I wanna start emphasizing that parents, absolutely pick the early childhood experience that is best for your family. You know, I shared in the interview, I panicked a little. I was, I was sad a little. I was like really…

Andrew: Kids not getting an airplane flyover… I’d better change.

Dr. Val: Right? I was really conflicted about the decision where to put the kids, whether it was like leaving a Black community that I knew loved my child and trying to like get more exposure to things earlier. I know that I was in a position of privilege to be able to make that, that choice.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: And I don't want any caregiver to feel shame around the choice that they have to make for their, their young person, whenever they have to make it. Right. So yeah, that still feels tough. You know, I have a high schooler and a, and an eighth grader and that still feels like, how do we continue to support and we, I'm talking about people of color, of privilege… How do we continue to support communities of color, and not get caught up in feeling like leaving communities of color is the best answer? I just don't know, Andrew. You know, like, I, I really am torn, torn about it, you know? I'm confident again because of the privilege my husband and I have as educators that our children would've been fine.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: They would've had exposure to fly over eventually, right? [laughs] We would've pointed out a plane, read a book about a plane.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Dr. Val: And every young person who can have that, like should be able to have those experiences.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: So I always wanna place the responsibility at the feet of the adults who are making these decisions around funding or around access, to just do a better job of making sure that all of our young people have access to incredible learning experiences that they deserve and not make parents and caregivers feel bad about what they can afford or where they can get their kid to school. You know, I don't have a good answer, but that's where I'm sitting right now.

Andrew: Can you talk a little bit… so, correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that you had sort of made this choice for a local Black daycare that was gonna be culturally affirming and identity affirming and then felt this pull towards the more resourced option that you were, you know, able to use your privilege to get into. But then when it came time for K-12 school it seems like you sort of moved back.

Dr. Val: Oh, I learned my lesson. [both laugh]

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, what…

Dr. Val: I learned my lesson…

Andrew: Is that what happened? Did you, did you learn your lesson? Because like, because then you did not opt for the more resourced, more privileged concentrating schools when it came time for K-12.

Dr. Val: Yeah. No, absolutely. So, I think I've shared this on episodes before, but, initially we just chose the neighborhood school. So we kind of followed the path, right? We were living in a, in a different neighborhood, when my son was going to daycare. But the school that I was teaching at, that's the, that's where the daycare was. So, you know, I rationalize like this daycare is close to where I work. I can get there in a hurry. And we eventually moved there. And so that put us into the feeder pattern of having similar experiences that my son had at daycare for elementary and middle and high school. But what I realized in elementary school was that it was actually the parents’ level of privilege in many cases that kept the school being ranked as high performing. So if there was a gap in instructional practice, caregivers would pay for tutoring, or, you know, caregivers were able to have lots of books in the home or whatever.

Andrew: It wasn't something like innate to what the school was doing that made it high performing. It was, it was the privilege that was concentrated in that school.

Dr. Val: Correct. And what I needed and what I wanted for our children was high quality teaching. And I found that, at honestly, Title one schools, because of the Title one funds to provide professional learning for the teachers who were there. And it made sure my kids interacted with kids across the global majority, across all areas of socioeconomic status. Like that's what I wanted. I wanted that experience for them. And so, as quickly as possible, we made that happen. And that has been the choice for schools moving forward, because, what I've realized is there's no, there's no replacing that type of identity affirming education. Like I, again, because of my level of privilege in terms of education and access I can get my kids some cool experiences. So in school I want them to feel whole.

Andrew: Yeah certainly one of the themes from the conversation that's been sticking with me is you know, we think about preschool as this totally separate entity, and all the ways that we think about, making a choice informed by our values and things like that tend to be, I dunno, maybe it's just me, but like, I feel like in a lot of conversations I have, those are put off until K-12, you know, it's not until kindergarten that you start, well, are you gonna support the local public school or are you not? Are you gonna opt out? And preschool feels like a totally separate entity.

Dr. Val: It does.

Andrew: And one of the things I appreciate about Dr. Stockstill’s research is that, like, Really kind of forcing us to reckon with the ways that the choices we make for preschool have implications for the rest of K-12 education. And I think that, you know, particularly this idea around what sort of messages do kids learn about school, as about school as a place for them or not for them, about what sorts of things, you know, from their home lives they should or should not bring into school. That we're starting to lay the groundwork for those messages. All the way back when they're three, when they're four, when they're five, that are then having these kind of ripple effects through really the rest of their educational experience.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I think something else that this episode does is really call out, uh, race and privilege in a way that we don't often talk about when we talk about the K-12 decisions. Right. And that was evident in what some of the young people were bringing to the conversation that they were trying to have with their teachers about sharing their experiences. And even in the Sunshine Head Start example in the narrative around the young people talking explicitly about some challenges that were happening in their lives, how we as a society, really don't know how to talk about poverty and how to support people. And that starts with our young children who are trying to make sense of it themselves, and that continues to happen with every choice that we make around school. And I don't even know that it's a daycare issue as much as it's an issue about us not knowing how to talk about poverty.

Andrew: Yeah, that example of a Head Start dealing with just things on such a totally different level than Great Beginnings in the White school. And yet still not really having the capacity to, or the training or whatever to talk about it, to, have conversations with the kids about it. And that's not a question of the preschool environment. I don't think that's a question of those particular people. I think that really speaks to our, as a country, our lack of kind of, class consciousness and ability to have conversations about some of those really challenging topics. You think, well, they're just, they're just preschoolers. What does it matter? But I think the way that that then shows up as they enter elementary school as they enter middle school, the messages they're receiving about, you know, both sort of society wide, what things do we talk about, what things do we not talk about, but also like, which parts of me are allowed to show up in school and which parts aren't? And that part felt really powerful. And, and sort of depressing, in that I don't think we're doing it really well, but also maybe there is like some hope in, that if we could figure out how to do that better, what might the kind of, you know, ripple effects of that be, if we could create spaces where, starting in preschool, everybody felt like they could bring their full selves.

Dr. Val: Oh man. Because if you can't do it in preschool.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: If you can't do it in preschool, we are lost.

Andrew: But if you could then, like what sort of expectations do you have for what teachers should or shouldn't do for you? I mean, I think that's the other piece that feels really interesting that, you know, tying into other research, is like then middle and upper class White kids, particularly White kids, but also other advantaged kids come in with this expectation that the teachers are going to respond to their needs. That the teachers are there to support them and um get involved in their lives in a way.

Dr. Val: That was so fascinating to me because that was something that I wasn't expecting from the conversation. And as I was listening to Dr. Stockstill all of the puzzle pieces are coming together in my mind about, you know, the issues. I'm laughing, the issues, the real issues that we have in our society. And I'm laughing and it's not funny. But it certainly was like, wow. Okay. So the expectation from young privileged and White kids is that yeah, teachers will do exactly what they want them to do to make their lives easier, and how that ripples into what our suburbs should look like and what our government should look like. Right. Yeah, that was completely unexpected. And you know, I found myself and I think Dr. Stockstill said the same in her research. Like she was really like, the play that she saw at Sunshine Head Start was really inspiring.

Andrew: Right, right. It was cool. It was like improv. And there's like all this like micro problem solving and they're learning all these like really cool creativity skills and stuff. And yet the like, the education system that they then enter after that isn't set up to recognize that… isn't set up to celebrate that. And so then it ends up, you know, in some ways being a disadvantage, at least in the school setting. Whereas, yeah, I mean, like you think like, yeah. That's the kind of play I want my kids to have.

Dr. Val: That's the kind of play I want. Yeah.

Andrew: One other thing I found powerful, you know, sort of linking back to Brittany Murray who was on talking about PTAs and parent engagement. You know, we have this idea in society that involved parents are a positive force for good in schools and she kind of helped us complicate that story a little bit. And I think that, you know, Dr. Stockstill's research similarly, like for sure, high quality preschool is an important piece of any sort of educational puzzle. And, we've seen the research to back up the positive effects it can have, but it is a little more complicated than just like, let's have more of it. Because there are ways in which the segregation that we're perpetuating has negative impacts for kids.

And so the answer is not less preschool, but to be more thoughtful about how we do it. And, you know, one of the things she said was, you know that, that all this potential good that can come from a really well designed preschool system, and she's not sure that it's possible to do that in segregated environments. That, like the fact of the segregation makes that really hard. I mean, she did mention, right, like there are, there are exceptions where you've got a Black preschool that is like designed specifically to be culturally affirming and that there is some benefit to sort of that version of segregation. But I think that, you know, sort of we're looking system wide, that, what are the opportunities we have to push back on segregation even starting at this level, because I think that's certainly one step towards a preschool system that actually benefits all kids.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Can you and I talk a little bit about what that means for us as caregivers who don't have preschoolers anymore? Right. So we know that this conversation will be really important for those who are starting their families and are thinking about preschool. How would you like to show up, I guess, for preschoolers?

Andrew: Hmm… So the first thing that comes to my mind is like, well, like I voted in favor of the Colorado bill that said we'd have universal Pre-K, so like, my work here is done. And like, it's important to support those things. It's important to support more funding. It's important to make sure that educators are getting paid well and all those things. But I think that there is probably another layer, and maybe it's around the conversations. You know it's so easy to fall into the river of, I need to get better. I need to get more, that my preschool choice is the thing that's going to make the difference between, you know, Nobel Prize and living in my basement until they're 50.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: It's so easy to fall into that and buy into this idea that, starting from the moment they're really little, if they're not getting an airplane flyover, that they're gonna be deprived in some really meaningful way. So figuring out like, how do, how do I contribute to a conversation that is different from that? So when people are having kids that, you know, there's a chance to have conversation. Cause I think there's this opportunity when someone has a brand new baby that everything is overwhelming. This is why there are so many books about parenting, particularly for young kids. Like, you're just grasping for anything. Somebody tell me what to do because this is all, I haven't slept…

Dr. Val: Because they send you home without instructions. [Andrew laughs]

Andrew: I haven't slept in days or weeks and I have no instruction manual. And so what am I gonna do? And so I think there is like an opportunity in those moments to think about, what kind of preschool do you want? What kind of preschool environment is important, maybe it's like thinking about the kind of rings of the first is the kid itself. And so like, yeah, you have to think about what kind of environment is good for your kid, but then also what works for your family if there are other kids involved, various co-parenting partners, whatever, what works for them? And then like more broadly, kind of are you contributing to or pushing back on this kind of broader segregation that exists at the preschool level?

Dr. Val: Yeah. And you know, I asked that question and I did not have an answer. I just, I still don't necessarily have an answer for myself. So it really was a grappling with you about what this looks like for us. I love your answers and I'm going back to what you said about just being nervous that your kid is missing out on something. And as a Black mom that is, that is both scary and real. And in my story I shared like, that was the choice that we made the first time. And , I thought, again, you know, and I, and I feel okay with our kids having less of the material resources that often come with affluent and predominantly White schools. I feel really okay with that. And, you just get nervous. You get nervous as a parent. There is pressure to make sure that you are providing your kid with the absolute best available. And so, what I would love to do to contribute to that conversation is, for folks who are living within their means in terms of what they have access to for early childhood, how can, as a community, we make sure that these young people have these experiences that some of these other affluent preschools might get. Right? So like what are some community organizations? How do we approach, like our local library and say, “Hey, we would love to have an event just for, you know, our zero to two year olds to do something.” Or how do we connect with local civic organizations or businesses to say, “Hey, can we do this?” Because if anybody says no to zero to three year olds, like they are the bad guys.

Andrew: There’s something wrong with them. Yeah, for sure. [laughing]

Dr. Val: And so, yeah, so maybe there's a way. Because we know the importance of that type of exposure. Maybe there's a way to still get that for some communities where the daycares are not able to provide that.

Andrew: How do you think about that, like that fear of missing out? Because there's a way in which for me, as a White dad with White kids, like, I kind of think that that fear is entirely fabricated. Like there is… I look at my kids' lives, like there is nothing that they are missing out on. Right? Like they have way too much, like, let's be honest, they've got way too much, right? The experiences, the stuff like they are just like in such a cushion of comfort and privilege. And so like this idea that if they don't get into the right elementary school or the right preschool or whatever. I'm ready to set all of that aside and say that is just like toxic White parenting culture that is telling me that I need to do something other for my kid. And there is like a sense of liberation in that in some ways.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: But I don't think that's true. I mean, you also have a degree of privilege, but it's not the same story for Black parents.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I don't feel like the fear is fabricated for Black parents. I don't. I think historically we know that communities of color and poor communities have been given the least amount of support, across any area, including education. Right. When Dr. Faircloth came on, I believe she said that first the books that she used went to the White students, then to the Black students, and then to Indigenous students. And so we have enough receipts for it not to feel like a fabricated fear. And my hope is our communities are strong enough to supplement in the ways that we can. And historically in the Black community, that was often through the church, right? So you would have lots of events through the church and lots of exposure. As our communities generated more wealth and retained more wealth for the communities like we were able to provide in that way. And I think I know that my kids are not getting an equitable education. I know, I know this.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: And that part makes me angry, annoyed, frustrated, and, I think I am relying on my privilege as an educator to make sure that they'll have the skills that they need. You know? My son asked me shortly after Christmas when I was like, why aren't you practicing your SAT words? And he's like, what ninth grader do you know, would be excited about getting an SAT prep book for Christmas? [Both start laughing]

Andrew: Of course you did.

Dr. Val: Of course I did. Because look, I know they're not doing it in school, right?

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: I still gotta prepare the young man, even though I wish he didn't have to take the test in the first place. Right? So it's like, how do you play the game that you don't wanna play? You still gotta be prepared to play it, you know? But that's my educator privilege talking. Right. And so, yeah, it's a real fear. I think we have to rely on our communities and our allies to make sure we're not missing out, you know, and that we're fighting for one another. I think that's the only answer really, we have to figure out how to continue to develop and strengthen coalitions for educational justice for all of our young people, until we can get the system to do the work that it should do.

Andrew: I think because the stakes are actually lower for my kids, it is reasonable to like, put more of the burden of that onto me. It is reasonable for me to be more invested in the global majority school around the corner, be more invested in the Head Start preschool because I, because right, I do think the stakes are different.

Dr. Val: So those are reaction steps, folks. You heard 'em. It does not matter if you've aged out of preschool like this work still needs to be done, and we need everyone on board to make sure that it's happening for our youngest learners.

Andrew: It's terrifying to have kids. It's terrifying for them to, you know, get older and then it's particularly terrifying to, to leave them with somebody else for the first time. And that is where it does feel like the stakes around preschool do start to feel higher just because you're leaving your precious little three year olds with, or two year olds, or one-year-olds, or, you know, six week olds with strangers. And that, speaks to me again of the importance of it being a community, of it being a space where everybody's value and identity is affirmed. Where there's room for play, where there's room for growth and that sort of thing. Because yeah, it's, uh, it's an important role that those educators play.

Dr. Val: We loved the early childhood care providers who took care of our young people when I went back to work and really relied on them to love our young people, love our children in the way we would've wanted to. And so I would love to dedicate this episode to Miss Shirley. Uh, Miss Shirley was in our lives for just a short period of time. She was a teacher in my son's classroom, an educator of color that really like, connected with our son and made sure he was loved and cared for. She was diagnosed with cancer and very quickly within six weeks we lost her. It was a shock to all of us, and our young people and the children in the classroom. And so I thank Ms. Shirley for all that she has given us. I'm pretty sure she potty trained that boy because I wasn't gonna be able to do it. And, uh, yeah. So thank you Ms. Shirley.

Andrew: Thank you, Ms. Shirley. One final action step. It is a tough business. Early childhood education is a tough business. In some places there's starting to be more funding for it. We're starting to see places, but it's always hard. And I guarantee wherever you live, there is some small, struggling early childhood education center, that you could be supporting. So reach out to them.

Dr. Val: Yep.

Andrew: Volunteer. Throw them a few bucks. Whatever it is.

Dr. Val: Buy some books, buy some toys.

Andrew: Bring 'em some snacks.

Dr. Val: Yeah. For sure.

Andrew: They need it. And speaking of support, we would be grateful for your support. patreon.com/integratedschools. Throw us a few bucks every month. We would be very grateful for that.

Dr. Val: Yes. And also we talked about just being a part of the conversation as an action step that you can take. I am sure that as a caregiver and a parent, you are in conversation with lots of people who are starting their parenthood for the first time. Just invite them to listen to the episode or be in conversation with you about what they're thinking for early childhood.

Andrew: Absolutely. Well, Val, as always, it is a deep pleasure and honor to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time friend.

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